Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) Chair and CEO Janno Lieber appeared on NY1’s Inside City Hall with Errol Louis to discuss the success of congestion pricing six months in, and other transportation-related issues.
A transcript of the interview appears below.
Errol Louis: Earlier this week, torrential downpours caused serious disruptions in our city's subway system and on the roads, with several subway stations experiencing massive flooding. You can see the videos there. Although the MTA has invested in making subways more climate resilient, it could take years and a lot more in funding to keep the system dry entirely. But there's some good news for the MTA: they do have money coming in thanks to congestion pricing. Last week marked 6 months since the toll was implemented, and the governor's office cited data that 67,000 fewer vehicles are entering the Congestion Relief Zone every day, while subway ridership is up by an estimated 7 percent. Joining me now to talk about that, and much more, is MTA Chairman and CEO Janno Lieber. Welcome back to the program, always good to see you.
MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber: Good to be with you, Errol.
Louis: Let's talk a little bit about that flooding.
Lieber: Yeah.
Louis: It only was an hour's worth of rainfall, but it seemed to have really knocked out at least a few stations. What happened? Is it going to happen again? What do we do to prevent that?
Lieber: Well the big picture is, we are now in the era of climate change, where we're having these torrential rainfalls, one variety of climate change impact, along with sea level rise and many other things. We're having these extreme weather events more frequently, and what they're doing is they're dropping more rain in a single hour. The other night was the second most torrential downpour, like two and a half inches. Someone said it was even up to four in Central Park in a single hour, and that exceeds New York City's sewer and storm water management system's capacity. So, when it backs up, you know where it goes? The lowest place around, which is the subway. So, the MTA has done a ton of things to try to make our system more impervious to climate change and rainfall. We raised subway grates, you see those all over town. We're actually around entrances lifting up an extra step so water can't get into the stairway. But we do need our partners in city government to really invest in expanding the capacity of the sewer system, because otherwise this is going to keep happening and so pushing a little bit. I always say to people, the subway system is the State and the MTA’s responsibility. We made the case that we have to invest in this old system and bring it into 21st century standards. We need the City to make similar investments in the sewer system so we're ready.
Louis: Is the problem that it would be a multi-billion-dollar, multi-year or multi-decade project, and this only happens, you know, once or twice every season?
Lieber: Yeah. I mean, it's a question of your priorities. But I think that getting ready for climate change is a priority, and making sure that these important infrastructure systems are not constantly deluged. Look, the City like 25 years ago made that long-term investment in the additional water tunnel. Remember that? And it took a couple decades to play out, but they kept going right through Giuliani and Bloomberg and de Blasio, and they got it done. This warrants a similar level of investment. It's in the billions, but you’ve got to start somewhere, and the time is now.
Louis: Okay. Tell us the latest on the Trump administration's legal challenge to congestion pricing. We’re glad for the six months, although the numbers seem to be going in the right direction, and you seem to be winning in court every time you reach another hurdle. But where do things stand?
Lieber: Yeah. I mean, listen, I keep saying it, but we've won every lawsuit. We've been sued in every court it seems east of the Mississippi. The main case that remains is in the Southern District federal court, Southern District of New York, and Judge Liman. Judge Lewis Liman is, I think, that they’ve almost finished submitting all the papers. He will make a decision, all probability, in the next month or so. He's already signaled that he thinks that congestion pricing is completely legit on the merits, because he gave up what they call a P.I., a preliminary injunction, barring the Trump administration for punishing us for doing something that the USDOT had already authorized. They wanted to punish us, take away money. They were threatening to do that. And so, we are pretty optimistic about that case. The main point though is, as Governor Hochul keeps saying, congestion pricing is, it's just an across-the-board success. Less congestion. People are getting in and out of the city faster. It's amazing, but drivers coming to Manhattan are among the biggest supporters in recent polling. And it's good for the environment, less air pollution, less honking and a lot less traffic crashes involving pedestrians.
Louis: I don't know if this falls in your sphere of research, but people being able to get to and from, especially with deliveries and making meetings on time and so forth, that is an economic benefit as well?
Lieber: Yea, it's a good point. Congestion is a drag on the economy. That's why all the big business groups – New York City Partnership, Real Estate Board and otherwise supported congestion pricing for years and years, and we're already seeing improved economic activity in the Central Business District: more pedestrians spending more money, but also less cars, less congestion. It's a win-win.
Louis: Okay, let me switch topics. I interviewed Andrew Cuomo yesterday, candidate for mayor. Some of what he had to say was that he wants to have New York City manage the New York City Transit system, basically undo what happened 60 years ago when they put the transit system into and created the MTA. He's saying, let us do the capital projects, let us do the security with the NYPD, let us do maintenance. Let us manage it. What do you think of that?
Lieber: Listen, I always got along well with Governor Cuomo when he was in office, but I'd say this is an episode that proves out the maxim, ‘where you sit is where you stand.’ When he was governor, the then-Speaker of the City Council proposed something very like what he just said. He brushed it off and dismissed it. But the more important thing is this is not the time to be talking about dismantling the MTA. We’re on a decent roll. Ridership is way way up. On-time performance on the subways, and especially on the commuter railroads, which has been service out of sight, is way way up and all, we're providing a ton more service. Errol, people forget we got 40 percent more Long Island Rail Road service, more service on 11 subway lines, and we've expanded the whole bus system in Queens and elsewhere, and yet the MTA is running at a 3 percent lower budget than before COVID, when Cuomo, by the way, was the governor. This is a much more efficient MTA, and the customer satisfaction has been soaring. So, this is not the time to talk about going backwards.
Louis: Okay. Now Mr. Cuomo’s rival, Zohran Mamdani, has his own proposed tinkering with your system proposing, of course, fast and free bus service across the board. Putting aside financial concerns, if Albany were to come up with the estimated, I think what $700 million to do that, is that something you can manage and do you think it's a good idea?
Lieber: Listen, what I'm going to say is this. I'm thrilled that people are talking about transit as part of this very, very interesting mayoral race. And I actually think that one of the lessons of primary day was, you know, voters in New York City use transit. They pay attention. And when people are talking about improving and giving more transit, that's a benefit. You know, a lot of pro-transit candidates won on Primary Day. That's great. The one thing I would add to this debate, because I don't want to get into the specifics of campaign proposals just yet, is when you're talking about the transit system and affordability it has to start with the transit system is one of the things that makes New York affordable. It is not an affordability problem. It's 15 percent the cost of owning a car. For people who are up to 140 percent of the poverty line, they get half price. We have a million and a half seniors and disabled people and another half a million kids who get half price or free rides. We are part of making the city affordable. And I urge everybody, we want transit better and faster and all those things, but the real affordability issues that I hope will be dealt with, housing, child care and so on, transit is a plus for affordability, not a problem.
Louis: Okay. I saw that in May, the MTA began testing artificial intelligence to boost security and reduce crime, using AI software to somehow spot suspicious behavior. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe you're looking through cameras? Any results you can share with us?
Lieber: No, it's premature. This is getting garbled a little bit in translation. What professionals can do is say, if you want, if you use AI effectively, you might see somebody who's in mental health crisis, maybe even, God forbid, somebody who's going to do harm to themselves by some, you know, patterns of behavior. And we want to make sure that not only that, to use AI to protect people, but to make sure that the cameras that would capture that are actually registering at the places where cameras are monitored. That people are paying attention to someone that's exhibiting a behavior pattern that might suggest, God forbid, they're going to jump on the tracks and harm themselves. So it really starts with using AI to detect hopefully, and it's not by no means implemented yet, it's a process to detect situations that put people at risk of harm, and that's our first priority. But you know, we'll see where it goes.
Louis: Okay. Thanks very much. Great talking with you. Thanks for coming by.
Lieber: Good to see you.